Discussion:
Beatles up there with Bach and Beethoven?
(too old to reply)
Elena Nakashima
2003-11-08 18:13:50 UTC
Permalink
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.

You agree? I don't, but what if we were to turn rock albums into
symphonic pieces?

Never mind just the Beatles. Imagine the Who's My Generation and
Stone's Satisfaction performed by a large orchestra. In the case of
the former, we may even let the drummer destroy his equipment.
Townsend can conduct, using his windmill arm gestures.
foo
2003-11-08 19:41:46 UTC
Permalink
It's an interesting theory but a comparison that really can't be made. By
definition, they performed pop(ular) music. They are still highly regarded
but whether they are still regarded at all in 150 years remains to be seen.

I don't believe the quality of any composition should be rated upon it's
complexity yet I can't help but think it may lend a helping hand in a pieces
long term place in the stars. Only time will truely tell...

-matt-
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
You agree? I don't, but what if we were to turn rock albums into
symphonic pieces?
Never mind just the Beatles. Imagine the Who's My Generation and
Stone's Satisfaction performed by a large orchestra. In the case of
the former, we may even let the drummer destroy his equipment.
Townsend can conduct, using his windmill arm gestures.
TJ
2003-11-10 19:29:51 UTC
Permalink
I don't think complexity has anything to do with how good a
song/tune/symphony is or isnt.

If that were the case EVERYONE would love modern jazz!

If a piece were measured on it's complexity then nearly all of the early
rock and roll stuff and all of punk would be discounted......

If anyone tries to say that the Ramones or the Sex Pistols have no
historical worth there'll be trouble!!!!!!

While I have a head of steam on, what about this argument that 'pop' tunes
would not stand up to being played by an orchestra? Can you imagine how
1812/Fur Elise/Carmen would sound done by a rock band?

I know rock bands have done classical tunes and I know that orchestras have
done rock tunes but by and large they don't cross over.... and there is no
reason why they should, it's like saying that Harry Potter is no match for
Cantabury Tales just because you read them both don't make them
competitors.......

To finish, to say one is better than the other is futile, it's all about
taste, opinion and perspective and that is why I LOVE MUSIC, it is not a
competetive sport.

Grrrrrrrrrr

Here endeth the lesson

TJ
Post by foo
It's an interesting theory but a comparison that really can't be made. By
definition, they performed pop(ular) music. They are still highly regarded
but whether they are still regarded at all in 150 years remains to be seen.
I don't believe the quality of any composition should be rated upon it's
complexity yet I can't help but think it may lend a helping hand in a pieces
long term place in the stars. Only time will truely tell...
-matt-
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
You agree? I don't, but what if we were to turn rock albums into
symphonic pieces?
Never mind just the Beatles. Imagine the Who's My Generation and
Stone's Satisfaction performed by a large orchestra. In the case of
the former, we may even let the drummer destroy his equipment.
Townsend can conduct, using his windmill arm gestures.
Prai Jei
2003-11-23 21:27:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
You agree? I don't, but what if we were to turn rock albums into
symphonic pieces?
Just been listening to John Rutter's "Beatles Concerto" - brilliant!

--
Paul V. S. Townsend
Interchange the alphabetic elements to reply
George Perry
2003-11-08 20:01:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
You agree? I don't, but what if we were to turn rock albums into
symphonic pieces?
Never mind just the Beatles. Imagine the Who's My Generation and
Stone's Satisfaction performed by a large orchestra. In the case of
the former, we may even let the drummer destroy his equipment.
Townsend can conduct, using his windmill arm gestures.
i've got a CD entitled Symphonic Music of The Rolling Stones. Pretty
interesting, i believe it came out in 1994, with the London Symphony
Orchestra performing.

Gimme Shelter is extraordinary.
Dr.Matt
2003-11-08 20:34:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
You agree? I don't, but what if we were to turn rock albums into
symphonic pieces?
Never mind just the Beatles. Imagine the Who's My Generation and
Stone's Satisfaction performed by a large orchestra. In the case of
the former, we may even let the drummer destroy his equipment.
Townsend can conduct, using his windmill arm gestures.
This has been done to death.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Lookingglass
2003-11-08 22:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps not by everyone else... some people may be new to our group... if
you don't wish to participate... don't... but maybe the rest of us WOULD
like to discuss the subject... AGAIN.


PEACE... Dave www.Shemakhan.com
Post by Dr.Matt
This has been done to death.
Dr.Matt
2003-11-08 23:25:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lookingglass
Perhaps not by everyone else... some people may be new to our group... if
you don't wish to participate... don't... but maybe the rest of us WOULD
like to discuss the subject... AGAIN.
No, I'm not saying the TOPIC has been done to death, I'm saying
the business of making symphonic Beatles transcriptions has been
done to death. I'm sure if you look for 'em you can find 'em.
Post by Lookingglass
PEACE... Dave www.Shemakhan.com
Post by Dr.Matt
This has been done to death.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Jerry Kohl
2003-11-09 01:16:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr.Matt
Post by Lookingglass
Perhaps not by everyone else... some people may be new to our group... if
you don't wish to participate... don't... but maybe the rest of us WOULD
like to discuss the subject... AGAIN.
No, I'm not saying the TOPIC has been done to death, I'm saying
the business of making symphonic Beatles transcriptions has been
done to death. I'm sure if you look for 'em you can find 'em.
At the risk of sounding like a well-known antagonist, "What has that got to
do with classical music, Fields?" Wouldn't an arrangement for string quartet
or piano trio be just as superficial a transformation, as well as being less
likely to be confused with movie-soundtrack music?

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Dr.Matt
2003-11-09 06:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Dr.Matt
Post by Lookingglass
Perhaps not by everyone else... some people may be new to our group... if
you don't wish to participate... don't... but maybe the rest of us WOULD
like to discuss the subject... AGAIN.
No, I'm not saying the TOPIC has been done to death, I'm saying
the business of making symphonic Beatles transcriptions has been
done to death. I'm sure if you look for 'em you can find 'em.
At the risk of sounding like a well-known antagonist, "What has that got to
do with classical music, Fields?"
That was MY point exactly!
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
paramucho
2003-11-09 13:06:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr.Matt
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
You agree? I don't, but what if we were to turn rock albums into
symphonic pieces?
Never mind just the Beatles. Imagine the Who's My Generation and
Stone's Satisfaction performed by a large orchestra. In the case of
the former, we may even let the drummer destroy his equipment.
Townsend can conduct, using his windmill arm gestures.
This has been done to death.
And it's a bit like rescoring Beethoven to sound like Bach... why go
backwards.
Jerry Kohl
2003-11-10 01:36:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by paramucho
Post by Dr.Matt
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
You agree? I don't, but what if we were to turn rock albums into
symphonic pieces?
Never mind just the Beatles. Imagine the Who's My Generation and
Stone's Satisfaction performed by a large orchestra. In the case of
the former, we may even let the drummer destroy his equipment.
Townsend can conduct, using his windmill arm gestures.
This has been done to death.
And it's a bit like rescoring Beethoven to sound like Bach... why go
backwards.
For comic effect? Do you remember "Sugar Plums", which was favourite
bombastic passages from Tchaikovsky scored for the Dolmetsch Consort? I
always admired the cap-pistol standing in for the cannon in the 1812.
And at a summer workshop once, I nearly died laughing when James
Caldwell, spotting a clavichord in a temporarily vacant practice-room,
nipped over to it and played the opening of Mahler's Eighth Symphony!

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
paramucho
2003-11-10 13:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by paramucho
Post by Dr.Matt
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
You agree? I don't, but what if we were to turn rock albums into
symphonic pieces?
Never mind just the Beatles. Imagine the Who's My Generation and
Stone's Satisfaction performed by a large orchestra. In the case of
the former, we may even let the drummer destroy his equipment.
Townsend can conduct, using his windmill arm gestures.
This has been done to death.
And it's a bit like rescoring Beethoven to sound like Bach... why go
backwards.
For comic effect? Do you remember "Sugar Plums", which was favourite
bombastic passages from Tchaikovsky scored for the Dolmetsch Consort? I
always admired the cap-pistol standing in for the cannon in the 1812.
And at a summer workshop once, I nearly died laughing when James
Caldwell, spotting a clavichord in a temporarily vacant practice-room,
nipped over to it and played the opening of Mahler's Eighth Symphony!
I missed that one...

There was one good set of Beatles' rescoring: THE BAROQUE BEATLES
SONGBOOK, composed by Joshua Rifkin and performed by the Baroque
Ensemble of the Merseyside Kammermusikgesellschaft was very clever.
What he *didn't* do was just make cheesy rearrangements. He fully
recomposed in the style -- quodlibets and cantatas etc.

I did two barely competent pastiches of Harrison and Lennon bits and
pieces last year. They're on-line at www.beathoven.com/downloads --
the orchestra didn't have much time for rehearsal at the time though.
There's also a piece which is probably a bit like your "Sugar Plums"
where I murder my least favorite McCartney tune, "Maxwell's Silver
Hammer".
Jerry Kohl
2003-11-10 19:30:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by paramucho
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by paramucho
Post by Dr.Matt
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
You agree? I don't, but what if we were to turn rock albums into
symphonic pieces?
Never mind just the Beatles. Imagine the Who's My Generation and
Stone's Satisfaction performed by a large orchestra. In the case of
the former, we may even let the drummer destroy his equipment.
Townsend can conduct, using his windmill arm gestures.
This has been done to death.
And it's a bit like rescoring Beethoven to sound like Bach... why go
backwards.
For comic effect? Do you remember "Sugar Plums", which was favourite
bombastic passages from Tchaikovsky scored for the Dolmetsch Consort? I
always admired the cap-pistol standing in for the cannon in the 1812.
And at a summer workshop once, I nearly died laughing when James
Caldwell, spotting a clavichord in a temporarily vacant practice-room,
nipped over to it and played the opening of Mahler's Eighth Symphony!
I missed that one...
There was one good set of Beatles' rescoring: THE BAROQUE BEATLES
SONGBOOK, composed by Joshua Rifkin and performed by the Baroque
Ensemble of the Merseyside Kammermusikgesellschaft was very clever.
Yes, a delightful bit of work, only it was actually titled "The Baroque
Beatles Book".
Post by paramucho
What he *didn't* do was just make cheesy rearrangements. He fully
recomposed in the style -- quodlibets and cantatas etc.
I did two barely competent pastiches of Harrison and Lennon bits and
pieces last year. They're on-line at www.beathoven.com/downloads --
the orchestra didn't have much time for rehearsal at the time though.
There's also a piece which is probably a bit like your "Sugar Plums"
Not mine. I've forgotten now who made the arrangement--possibly Carl
Dolmetsch--but it was done as part of the Hoffnung Interplanetary Music
Festival, just before the advertisements in the styles of various
20th-century composers ("The end of day is the beginning of night / You
can't see nothing, without a light ...").
Post by paramucho
where I murder my least favorite McCartney tune, "Maxwell's Silver
Hammer".
I'll go and have a listen. Sounds like fun.

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Lookingglass
2003-11-08 23:09:25 UTC
Permalink
IMHO... it is the QUALITY of the Beatles songs that stands out for me... it
wasn't their personalities (though I found them all delightful people who
handled themselves well considering what they were subjected to)... it
wasn't all the hoopla around them (though I was aware of the "Beatlemania"
in all the news)... it was the adventure they took us on with their music...
up until that time the pop(ular) music was (while danceable and listenable)
pretty mundane... I think the Beatles (and George Martin) really explored
the possibilities of what POP music could (and should) be... I know I was
thoroughly entertained and intrigued by their music and the innovations that
were produced in the entertainment and music worlds... of which they were
part of and even led the way in many respects...

... most importantly however... their music is just GOOD.


PEACE... Dave www.Shemakhan.com


"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone,
"it means just what I choose it to mean... neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean
so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master... that's
all."

Lewis Carroll
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
Stephen Mack
2003-11-08 23:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
Forget Bach and Beethoven. I wouldn't even give the Beatles the title
of greatest pop/rock band of their generation. IMO, Hendrix deserves
that title. Already, Hendrix has had a more significant influence on
the generations that have followed. And, while I wouldn't put him up
there with Bach and Beethoven, I think a comparison to Liszt is
arguable.

As the boomer generation dies off, my guess is that the obsessively
high esteem for the Beatles will die off as well. They'll be
remembered like, say, Percy Faith or Bing Crosby. Quite pleasant to
listen to, but dated and not particularly deep.

I can just imagine a music history class 100 years from now comparing
Beethoven's first two symphonies with "I Want To Hold Your Hand." LOL!

Okay, all you boomers: bring it on! ;)
--
Smack

"Nobody's smart enough to be wrong all the time." -Ken Wilber
Mister Charlie
2003-11-09 03:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Mack
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
Forget Bach and Beethoven. I wouldn't even give the Beatles the title
of greatest pop/rock band of their generation. IMO, Hendrix deserves
that title. Already, Hendrix has had a more significant influence on
the generations that have followed. And, while I wouldn't put him up
there with Bach and Beethoven, I think a comparison to Liszt is
arguable.
As the boomer generation dies off, my guess is that the obsessively
high esteem for the Beatles will die off as well. They'll be
remembered like, say, Percy Faith or Bing Crosby. Quite pleasant to
listen to, but dated and not particularly deep.
I can just imagine a music history class 100 years from now comparing
Beethoven's first two symphonies with "I Want To Hold Your Hand."
LOL!
Post by Stephen Mack
Okay, all you boomers: bring it on! ;)
You're quite wrong. Hendrix's influence was limited compared to the
Beatles.

It doesn't much matter. For us to know the answer we'd ALL have to have
been dead 100 years.
Stephen Mack
2003-11-09 11:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mister Charlie
You're quite wrong. Hendrix's influence was limited compared to the
Beatles.
The fact that you use the word "was," past tense, makes me wonder if
we're talking about the same thing. By "generations that have
followed," I was referring to the "Gen X'ers" and "Millennials," i.e.
the youth of the past twenty or thirty years. Certainly I wouldn't
question that the Beatles' influence was bigger than Hendrix's in their
own time, but I would still contend that Hendrix has been more
influential to the generations that have followed. I'm not sure if
that was clear.
Post by Mister Charlie
It doesn't much matter. For us to know the answer we'd ALL have to have
been dead 100 years.
This is very true. These are all just educated guesses at best.
--
Smack

"Nobody's smart enough to be wrong all the time." -Ken Wilber
Mister Charlie
2003-11-09 16:01:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Mack
Post by Mister Charlie
You're quite wrong. Hendrix's influence was limited compared to the
Beatles.
The fact that you use the word "was," past tense, makes me wonder if
we're talking about the same thing. By "generations that have
followed," I was referring to the "Gen X'ers" and "Millennials," i.e.
the youth of the past twenty or thirty years. Certainly I wouldn't
question that the Beatles' influence was bigger than Hendrix's in their
own time, but I would still contend that Hendrix has been more
influential to the generations that have followed. I'm not sure if
that was clear.
It was clear but I still disagree.

At least, to the extent that I don't believe either one is that big an
influence nowadays on young musicians.
grantco
2003-11-11 19:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mister Charlie
Post by Stephen Mack
Post by Mister Charlie
You're quite wrong. Hendrix's influence was limited compared to the
Beatles.
The fact that you use the word "was," past tense, makes me wonder if
we're talking about the same thing. By "generations that have
followed," I was referring to the "Gen X'ers" and "Millennials," i.e.
the youth of the past twenty or thirty years. Certainly I wouldn't
question that the Beatles' influence was bigger than Hendrix's in
their
Post by Stephen Mack
own time, but I would still contend that Hendrix has been more
influential to the generations that have followed. I'm not sure if
that was clear.
It was clear but I still disagree.
At least, to the extent that I don't believe either one is that big an
influence nowadays on young musicians.
They are often influencial without the younger musicians knowing it.
Take Hendrix for example. From Hendrix came Cream. From Cream came Led
Zep and Black Sabbath. From Black Sabbath came just about every metal
band in existence since...

For me the Beatles are harder to trace. Their music did in some ways
launch prog rock, from Pink Floyd to King Crimson and Yes, but the
influence wasn't as much their sound but their ideas of stretching
rock music to include other forms like classical etc.
Donz5
2003-11-11 19:56:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by grantco
They are often influencial without the younger musicians knowing it.
Take Hendrix for example. From Hendrix came Cream. From Cream came Led
Zep and Black Sabbath. From Black Sabbath came just about every metal
band in existence since...
Cream preceded Hendrix.
BlackMonk
2003-11-11 20:19:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by grantco
Post by Mister Charlie
Post by Stephen Mack
Post by Mister Charlie
You're quite wrong. Hendrix's influence was limited compared to the
Beatles.
The fact that you use the word "was," past tense, makes me wonder if
we're talking about the same thing. By "generations that have
followed," I was referring to the "Gen X'ers" and "Millennials," i.e.
the youth of the past twenty or thirty years. Certainly I wouldn't
question that the Beatles' influence was bigger than Hendrix's in
their
Post by Stephen Mack
own time, but I would still contend that Hendrix has been more
influential to the generations that have followed. I'm not sure if
that was clear.
It was clear but I still disagree.
At least, to the extent that I don't believe either one is that big an
influence nowadays on young musicians.
They are often influencial without the younger musicians knowing it.
Take Hendrix for example. From Hendrix came Cream. From Cream came Led
Zep and Black Sabbath. From Black Sabbath came just about every metal
band in existence since...
For me the Beatles are harder to trace. Their music did in some ways
launch prog rock, from Pink Floyd to King Crimson and Yes,
Their music also lauched Power Pop. And Country Rock. And Psychedelia.
Throw in the solo careers and you've also got the roots of grunge. (Plastic
Ono Band to Nirvana is a pretty straight line)

Just about any band that has two or more members singing harmony has roots
in The Beatles and/or The Beach Boys.
Donz5
2003-11-11 20:37:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlackMonk
Just about any band that has two or more members singing harmony has roots
in The Beatles and/or The Beach Boys.
Or the Everly Brothers.
EgwEimi
2003-11-11 20:59:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by grantco
They are often influencial without the younger musicians knowing it.
Take Hendrix for example. From Hendrix came Cream. From Cream came Led
Zep and Black Sabbath. From Black Sabbath came just about every metal
band in existence since...
Cream's first LP, "Fresh Cream," was released in 1966, following the release of
their first single that October.

Jimi Hendrix's first LP, "Are You Experienced," was released in August, 1967.
Hendrix's popularity shot up with two events: 1. At the suggestion of members
of the Beatles, Jimi was invited to participate in the Monterey Pop Festival;
2. Jimi took part in Woodstock, playing a legendary version of the
"Star-Spangled Banner." His two "greatest" albums were released in 1968
("Axis: Bold As Love" and "Electric Ladyland").

Led Zeppelin and Cream both emerged (in a fashion) after the Yardbirds, since
Clapton and later Jimmy Page had been memberss. The group to be known as Led
Zeppelin toured as the New Yardbirds for contractual reasons and then became LZ
in Fall, 1968. They were more closely connected with John Mayall and the
Animals than they were with Hendrix. Certainly, they did not follow or copy
Hendrix.

As for Black Sabbath, although their first LP was released in early 1970, they
were signed in '69. Their sound traces itself back (to an extent) to some of
what Cream was doing, but not to Hendrix. They were far more influenced by
acts like Blue Cheer.
The earliest influence on that style of sound was probably The Who, a band that
was classified as "British Invasion" at the time.

The British blues movement, which came to generate a heavier sound (that was
picked up by others and named "Heavy Metal" after a line from Steppenwolf's
"Born to be Wild"), is the same movement to which the Rolling Stones belonged.
The Stones, of course, were intricately connected to the Beatles, since several
members of both bands were friends.

The Beatles and the Who also influenced one another in the same way that the
Beatles and Stones influenced each other (or the Beatles and Brian Wilson).

The Beatles had enough popularity that they could expose the masses to sounds
that they might otherwise not hear on the radio. Before the Beatles-inspired
"First British Invasion," British groups seldom made it big in the US. The
Who, the Animals, and the Stones were all introduced to wide audiences because
of the Beatles, whose sound both influenced and was influenced by the
blues-based British bands.

Many styles that followed the Beatles (from the 70's to the present) have paid
homage to them. Guitarists and drummers have paid tribute to them...and still
do. That's why the Beatles have had greater sustained popularity SINCE 1990
than any other artist in the "pop/rock" genre. The Beatles are still
influencing this generation.

Artistically, the Beatles used their fame to allow them to turn "promotional
fims" into artistic "rock videos," creating the first "album video" in 1967 --
fifteen years ahead of Thriller. They took creative control of their cover
artwork -- something that modern musicians take for granted. Putting song
lyrics with albums, spending significant money on videos and artwork, and
setting up their own company are creative elements that the Beatles
demonstrated were possible for post-fifties-pop artists. Their songwriting in
'65 and '66 influenced some of the folk-rock movement, and they are so credited
in the liner notes of certain folk-rock albums.

In other areas, they were the first group to play in large stadiums, forcing
sound system manufacturers to design (for the first time) for large audiences.

In addition, Beatles music brought in "new" and "unfamiliar" instruments from
other genres and introduced them to the average pop music listener. This
included not only strings but also the sitar, fuzz bass, jangle box, etc..
This inclusion of new sounds was intentional. With the encouragement of George
Martin, they played around with the recording process -- adding backward vocals
and instruments, sped up and slowed down music, and other "gimmicks" to
"popular" music (something that might otherwise have been relegated to the
Mothers of Invention). They also recorded synthesizer music very early,
chronologically.

Due to the Beatles' experimentation, Artificial Double Tracking was invented --
something that has enjoyed wide popularity. Rock music had been relegated to
two- or three-track machines, but the Beatles took that to eight tracks before
they broke up, showing that rock music could be just as complex as classical.
Heck, Paul has DONE classical.

When John Lennon wanted a grittier guitar sound on "Revolution," he had to
overload a pre-amplifier. Others, wanting to duplicate that sort of sound,
later created amps that make exactly that kind of "Revolution" feel. From '66
to '69, they regularly created sounds that could not be repeated "live."

The Beatles have had tremendous influence, not only as performers and composers
but also as businessmen (both good and bad!), as videographers, as inventors,
and in several other major ways. The organizational structures of major record
companies changed on account of that one group.

But hey, all that "rock guitar" stuff goes back to Chuck Berry, and
experimental drumming is a Gene Krupa thing.

Frank
BlackMonk
2003-11-11 23:10:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by EgwEimi
Post by grantco
They are often influencial without the younger musicians knowing it.
Take Hendrix for example. From Hendrix came Cream. From Cream came Led
Zep and Black Sabbath. From Black Sabbath came just about every metal
band in existence since...
Cream's first LP, "Fresh Cream," was released in 1966, following the release of
their first single that October.
Jimi Hendrix's first LP, "Are You Experienced," was released in August, 1967.
Hendrix's popularity shot up with two events: 1. At the suggestion of members
of the Beatles, Jimi was invited to participate in the Monterey Pop Festival;
2. Jimi took part in Woodstock, playing a legendary version of the
"Star-Spangled Banner." His two "greatest" albums were released in 1968
("Axis: Bold As Love" and "Electric Ladyland").
Led Zeppelin and Cream both emerged (in a fashion) after the Yardbirds, since
Clapton and later Jimmy Page had been memberss. The group to be known as Led
Zeppelin toured as the New Yardbirds for contractual reasons and then became LZ
in Fall, 1968. They were more closely connected with John Mayall and the
Animals than they were with Hendrix. Certainly, they did not follow or copy
Hendrix.
Are you talking about Led Zepplin or The Yardbirds? Led Zepplin followed The
Jeff Beck Group, and it's arguable that the Beck group followed Hendrix. On
the other hand, you could say they followed Cream.
Post by EgwEimi
As for Black Sabbath, although their first LP was released in early 1970, they
were signed in '69. Their sound traces itself back (to an extent) to some of
what Cream was doing, but not to Hendrix. They were far more influenced by
acts like Blue Cheer.
Who were influenced by Hendrix.
Post by EgwEimi
They also recorded synthesizer music very early,
chronologically.
Not really. They didn't use a Moog synthesizer until Abbey Road, after The
Doors, The Monkees and The Byrds had already used it.

If you consider the mellotron to be a synthesizer, the first rock artist to
record with it was Graham Bond. And if you're counting that, then why not
the electro-theremin in Good Vibrations?
Post by EgwEimi
Due to the Beatles' experimentation,
or laziness.

Artificial Double Tracking was invented --
Post by EgwEimi
something that has enjoyed wide popularity. Rock music had been relegated to
two- or three-track machines, but the Beatles took that to eight tracks before
they broke up, showing that rock music could be just as complex as classical.
They were a bit late to the party there. Eight track recording had been
around for a while before Abbey Road.
Mister Charlie
2003-11-12 00:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlackMonk
Who were influenced by Hendrix.
Not really. Only in passing. My Generation was full of feedback before
they'd even seen Jimi.

They were more on parallel paths then influencing each other.
BlackMonk
2003-11-12 01:12:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mister Charlie
Post by BlackMonk
Who were influenced by Hendrix.
Not really. Only in passing. My Generation was full of feedback before
they'd even seen Jimi.
They were more on parallel paths then influencing each other.
Well, Townsend was a huge Hendrix fan, but you misread me. The previous
paragraph said that someone (I forget who) was influenced by Blue Cheer and
I responded "Who were influenced by Hendrix."
Mister Charlie
2003-11-12 03:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlackMonk
Post by Mister Charlie
Post by BlackMonk
Who were influenced by Hendrix.
Not really. Only in passing. My Generation was full of feedback before
they'd even seen Jimi.
They were more on parallel paths then influencing each other.
Well, Townsend was a huge Hendrix fan, but you misread me. The
previous
Post by BlackMonk
paragraph said that someone (I forget who) was influenced by Blue Cheer and
I responded "Who were influenced by Hendrix."
Ah.

You are certainly correct there. I know Pete was indeed a huge Jimi
fan, as were most of the musicians who heard him in the mid-60's.
Tetrakarbon
2003-11-12 00:03:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by grantco
Post by Mister Charlie
Post by Stephen Mack
Post by Mister Charlie
You're quite wrong. Hendrix's influence was limited compared to the
Beatles.
The fact that you use the word "was," past tense, makes me wonder if
we're talking about the same thing. By "generations that have
followed," I was referring to the "Gen X'ers" and "Millennials," i.e.
the youth of the past twenty or thirty years. Certainly I wouldn't
question that the Beatles' influence was bigger than Hendrix's in
their
Post by Stephen Mack
own time, but I would still contend that Hendrix has been more
influential to the generations that have followed. I'm not sure if
that was clear.
It was clear but I still disagree.
At least, to the extent that I don't believe either one is that big an
influence nowadays on young musicians.
They are often influencial without the younger musicians knowing it.
Take Hendrix for example. From Hendrix came Cream. From Cream came Led
Zep and Black Sabbath. From Black Sabbath came just about every metal
band in existence since...
This is a chronology. They really have very very little relation with
each other. Cream was derived from Hendrix? I don't see the
connection there at all. And then Led Zep from Cream! I'm a big fan
of Cream, so I really don't understand where you're coming from...

Not that Hendrix is bad at all :)

-- 'karbon
Patrick Powers
2003-11-13 11:30:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tetrakarbon
Post by grantco
They are often influencial without the younger musicians knowing it.
Take Hendrix for example. From Hendrix came Cream. From Cream came Led
Zep and Black Sabbath. From Black Sabbath came just about every metal
band in existence since...
This is a chronology. They really have very very little relation with
each other. Cream was derived from Hendrix? I don't see the
connection there at all. And then Led Zep from Cream! I'm a big fan
of Cream, so I really don't understand where you're coming from...
Jimi Hendrix had a huge influence on the birth of rock. He headed
over to London before he made records and was a sensation before he
was heard of in the US Beatles, Who, Stones, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton,
Pink Floyd all owe a lot to him. According to Eric Clapton, "Sunshine
Of Your Love" is a tribute to JMH.

I'd say that Black Sabbath owes more to beer, marijuana, Quaaludes,
and PCP than any aural influence.

Now how about that Mozart Symp. 40?
Petebest
2003-11-13 15:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by Tetrakarbon
Post by grantco
They are often influencial without the younger musicians knowing it.
Take Hendrix for example. From Hendrix came Cream. From Cream came Led
Zep and Black Sabbath. From Black Sabbath came just about every metal
band in existence since...
This is a chronology. They really have very very little relation with
each other. Cream was derived from Hendrix? I don't see the
connection there at all. And then Led Zep from Cream! I'm a big fan
of Cream, so I really don't understand where you're coming from...
Jimi Hendrix had a huge influence on the birth of rock. He headed
over to London before he made records and was a sensation before he
was heard of in the US Beatles, Who, Stones, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton,
Pink Floyd all owe a lot to him. According to Eric Clapton, "Sunshine
Of Your Love" is a tribute to JMH.
The Beatles owe nothing to Hendrix. In fact, It is Hendrix that owes
the beatles having recorded the first intentional feedback on record
in 1965.
Tetrakarbon
2003-11-13 22:08:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Powers
Jimi Hendrix had a huge influence on the birth of rock. He headed
over to London before he made records and was a sensation before he
was heard of in the US Beatles, Who, Stones, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton,
Pink Floyd all owe a lot to him. According to Eric Clapton, "Sunshine
Of Your Love" is a tribute to JMH.
LOL

Not that Jimi Hendrix isn't important, but I just don't hear him in
Cream/Clapton... Clapton doesn't perform the "tricks" that Hendrix
did...
Frisbie Einstein
2003-11-14 14:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tetrakarbon
Post by Patrick Powers
Jimi Hendrix had a huge influence on the birth of rock. He headed
over to London before he made records and was a sensation before he
was heard of in the US Beatles, Who, Stones, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton,
Pink Floyd all owe a lot to him. According to Eric Clapton, "Sunshine
Of Your Love" is a tribute to JMH.
LOL
Not that Jimi Hendrix isn't important, but I just don't hear him in
Cream/Clapton... Clapton doesn't perform the "tricks" that Hendrix
did...
From http://www.guitarsite.com/clapton.htm

Q: Was Clapton influenced by Hendrix?
A: Author Marc Roberty holds that Hendrix was a "major influence" on
Clapton, and that his "driven, fuzz-tone blues opened up a whole new
world of possibilities for the electric guitar." The most visible
influence Jimi had on Eric was actually fashion. During his stint with
Cream, Clapton started wearing psychedelic clothing, and even went so
far as to perm his hair like Hendrix. In addition, Jack Bruce wrote
the main riff to Sunshine Of Your Love after seeing Jimi for the first
time at the first proper Experience gig at the Saville Theatre in
London.

From http://www.warr.org/clapton.html
Disraeli Gears (Cream: 1967)
- The best place to start with Cream, as it includes most of the
band's first-rate, Hendrix-inspired psychedelic hits ("Strange Brew";
"Sunshine Of Your Love"; "Tales Of Brave Ulysses"; "SWLABR").
Tetrakarbon
2003-11-16 00:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frisbie Einstein
Q: Was Clapton influenced by Hendrix?
A: Author Marc Roberty holds that Hendrix was a "major influence" on
Clapton, and that his "driven, fuzz-tone blues opened up a whole new
world of possibilities for the electric guitar." The most visible
influence Jimi had on Eric was actually fashion. During his stint with
Cream, Clapton started wearing psychedelic clothing, and even went so
the main riff to Sunshine Of Your Love after seeing Jimi for the first
time at the first proper Experience gig at the Saville Theatre in
London.
You heard it here, I was shot down. :)

I haven't listened to as much Hendrix as I should, so I guess I can't
speak to the issue incredibly fairly. I hadn't thought of him as an
influence, but I shouldn't rule it out by any means.

I guess I just thought of the contrast between Jimi's distorted Les
Paul and Clapton's super clear Strat... That's a simplification, I
guess. :)

Thanks for the info, and I'll start filling in my Hendrix collection
:)

-- 'karbon
band
2003-11-19 04:07:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tetrakarbon
I guess I just thought of the contrast between Jimi's distorted Les
Paul and Clapton's super clear Strat... That's a simplification, I
guess. :)
For the record, Jimi played Strats almost exclusively. Also, I believe
Clapton started out with a Les Paul; in fact, it is rumored he still
laments over a sunburst LP that was stolen back in the days of Cream.
Tetrakarbon
2003-11-19 21:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by band
laments over a sunburst LP that was stolen back in the days of Cream.
You're right, I can't believe I said Hendrix used a LP. :S

And yes, again, Clapton played LP's earlier in his career, before
switching over to Strats.

But their sounds really are quite different.. I just don't hear Jimi
in Eric's music. Oh well. :|

-- 'karbon
Nil
2003-11-19 23:01:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tetrakarbon
And yes, again, Clapton played LP's earlier in his career, before
switching over to Strats.
He also played Telecasters with the Yardbirds.
Post by Tetrakarbon
But their sounds really are quite different.. I just don't hear Jimi
in Eric's music. Oh well. :|
I've got a couple of Cream bootlegs where he plays more with feedback
and vibrato bar than we're used to hearing, so the connection is more
explicit. I'm sure they were listening to each other, and I don't think
they could help but be somewhat influenced by what they were hearing.
Dr. Raoul Xemblinosky
2003-11-21 11:33:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tetrakarbon
Post by band
laments over a sunburst LP that was stolen back in the days of Cream.
You're right, I can't believe I said Hendrix used a LP. :S
And yes, again, Clapton played LP's earlier in his career, before
switching over to Strats.
He also used to play the drums for an early version of Uriah Heep.
Patrick Powers
2003-11-22 12:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tetrakarbon
You heard it here, I was shot down. :)
Music to my ears!
Post by Tetrakarbon
I haven't listened to as much Hendrix as I should, so I guess I can't
speak to the issue incredibly fairly. I hadn't thought of him as an
influence, but I shouldn't rule it out by any means.
Actually, I think Clapton may have been more of an influence on Jimi.
Clapton made it big first and Jimi was a huge fan. Make no mistake,
in 1965 Clapton was the king of the electric guitar. Going to England
was a big step for Jimi and he hesitated until he was assured he'd get
a chance to meet Eric. There is a photo of them together and Jimi
looks sheepish and awestruck.

Then again, they both learned a lot from the Chicago blues guitarists,
BB Albert and Freddy King, Otis Rush, and so on.
Post by Tetrakarbon
I guess I just thought of the contrast between Jimi's distorted Les
Paul and Clapton's super clear Strat... That's a simplification, I
guess. :)
In the old days Clapton had that thick legato Gibson guitar & Marshall
amp tone. No one ever did it better. Eric played all makes and
models of guitars and only settled on the Strat after about 1970.
Post by Tetrakarbon
Thanks for the info, and I'll start filling in my Hendrix collection
:)
-- 'karbon
BlackMonk
2003-11-09 16:13:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Mack
Post by Mister Charlie
You're quite wrong. Hendrix's influence was limited compared to the
Beatles.
The fact that you use the word "was," past tense, makes me wonder if
we're talking about the same thing. By "generations that have
followed," I was referring to the "Gen X'ers" and "Millennials," i.e.
the youth of the past twenty or thirty years. Certainly I wouldn't
question that the Beatles' influence was bigger than Hendrix's in their
own time, but I would still contend that Hendrix has been more
influential to the generations that have followed. I'm not sure if
that was clear.
It was clear. Very debatable, but clear. The number of young bands
influenced by The Beatles is much greater than the number influenced by
Hendrix and the Beatles' influence goes beyond Rock into genres unaffected
by Hendrix. You don't hear many country musicians who cite Hendrix as an
influence, for example.
Patrick Powers
2003-11-22 12:16:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlackMonk
It was clear. Very debatable, but clear. The number of young bands
influenced by The Beatles is much greater than the number influenced by
Hendrix and the Beatles' influence goes beyond Rock into genres unaffected
by Hendrix.
Absolutely. The Beatles popularized multitrack recording,
overdubbing, and the seemingly obvious idea of spending a lot of time
and care on recording. Before Sgt. Pepper it was pretty much record
in one day, maybe two. NOBODY does it like that anymore.

Note I said popularized. Karlheinz Stockhausen actually invented it,
and Frank Zappa brought the idea to pop music.
Post by BlackMonk
You don't hear many country musicians who cite Hendrix as an
influence, for example.
You'd be surprised. There's a recording of Junior Price playing the
"Red House" solo on pedal steel guitar.
Jerry Kohl
2003-11-22 19:35:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
It was clear. Very debatable, but clear. The number of young bands
influenced by The Beatles is much greater than the number influenced by
Hendrix and the Beatles' influence goes beyond Rock into genres unaffected
by Hendrix.
Absolutely. The Beatles popularized multitrack recording,
overdubbing, and the seemingly obvious idea of spending a lot of time
and care on recording. Before Sgt. Pepper it was pretty much record
in one day, maybe two. NOBODY does it like that anymore.
Note I said popularized. Karlheinz Stockhausen actually invented it,
and Frank Zappa brought the idea to pop music.
I'm not sure that Stockhausen "invented" this technique single-handed (after all, multitrack recording was being
used in film soundtracks by the late 1930s, notably in Disney's Fantasia, while Stockhausen learned overdubbing
while studying in Paris in 1952), but he certainly did a great deal to develop these techniques in the earlier
stages of studio-produced tape music. (He certainly did invent the feedback-recording technique of reversing the
normal positions of record and playback heads.)

However, jumping from Stockhausen to either Zappa or the Beatles overlooks the very important influence of the
BBC Radiophonic Workshop, a team whose most prominent member was the late Delia Derbyshire. The Workshop,
established in 1958, drew heavily on techniques that had been established in Cologne at the WDR, where
Stockhausen worked. BBC4 showed a documentary about the Workshop just last month (Sunday 19 October), titled
"Alchemists of Sound".

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Donz5
2003-11-22 19:56:35 UTC
Permalink
However, jumping from Stockhausen to either Zappa or the >Beatles overlooks
the very important influence of the
BBC Radiophonic Workshop, a team whose most prominent member was the late
Delia Derbyshire. The Workshop,
established in 1958, drew heavily on techniques that had been established in
Cologne at the WDR, where
Stockhausen worked. BBC4 showed a documentary about the Workshop just last
month (Sunday 19 October), titled
"Alchemists of Sound".
Is Desmond Briscoe still around? He led a radiophonic workshop that WHA hosted
in Madison, where I was a participant, in June 1970.
Mister Charlie
2003-11-22 21:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
It was clear. Very debatable, but clear. The number of young bands
influenced by The Beatles is much greater than the number
influenced by
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
Hendrix and the Beatles' influence goes beyond Rock into genres unaffected
by Hendrix.
Absolutely. The Beatles popularized multitrack recording,
overdubbing, and the seemingly obvious idea of spending a lot of time
and care on recording. Before Sgt. Pepper it was pretty much record
in one day, maybe two. NOBODY does it like that anymore.
Note I said popularized. Karlheinz Stockhausen actually invented it,
and Frank Zappa brought the idea to pop music.
I'm not sure that Stockhausen "invented" this technique single-handed
(after all, multitrack recording was being
Post by Jerry Kohl
used in film soundtracks by the late 1930s, notably in Disney's
Fantasia, while Stockhausen learned overdubbing
Post by Jerry Kohl
while studying in Paris in 1952), but he certainly did a great deal to
develop these techniques in the earlier
Post by Jerry Kohl
stages of studio-produced tape music. (He certainly did invent the
feedback-recording technique of reversing the
Post by Jerry Kohl
normal positions of record and playback heads.)
However, jumping from Stockhausen to either Zappa or the Beatles
overlooks the very important influence of the
Post by Jerry Kohl
BBC Radiophonic Workshop, a team whose most prominent member was the
late Delia Derbyshire. The Workshop,
Post by Jerry Kohl
established in 1958, drew heavily on techniques that had been
established in Cologne at the WDR, where
Post by Jerry Kohl
Stockhausen worked. BBC4 showed a documentary about the Workshop just
last month (Sunday 19 October), titled
Post by Jerry Kohl
"Alchemists of Sound".
And we shouldn't forget Lester Paul. He did it with laquers instead of
tape...tons of generations worth!
Jerry Kohl
2003-11-22 21:42:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlackMonk
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
It was clear. Very debatable, but clear. The number of young bands
influenced by The Beatles is much greater than the number
influenced by
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
Hendrix and the Beatles' influence goes beyond Rock into genres
unaffected
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
by Hendrix.
Absolutely. The Beatles popularized multitrack recording,
overdubbing, and the seemingly obvious idea of spending a lot of
time
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
and care on recording. Before Sgt. Pepper it was pretty much record
in one day, maybe two. NOBODY does it like that anymore.
Note I said popularized. Karlheinz Stockhausen actually invented
it,
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
and Frank Zappa brought the idea to pop music.
I'm not sure that Stockhausen "invented" this technique single-handed
(after all, multitrack recording was being
Post by Jerry Kohl
used in film soundtracks by the late 1930s, notably in Disney's
Fantasia, while Stockhausen learned overdubbing
Post by Jerry Kohl
while studying in Paris in 1952), but he certainly did a great deal to
develop these techniques in the earlier
Post by Jerry Kohl
stages of studio-produced tape music. (He certainly did invent the
feedback-recording technique of reversing the
Post by Jerry Kohl
normal positions of record and playback heads.)
However, jumping from Stockhausen to either Zappa or the Beatles
overlooks the very important influence of the
Post by Jerry Kohl
BBC Radiophonic Workshop, a team whose most prominent member was the
late Delia Derbyshire. The Workshop,
Post by Jerry Kohl
established in 1958, drew heavily on techniques that had been
established in Cologne at the WDR, where
Post by Jerry Kohl
Stockhausen worked. BBC4 showed a documentary about the Workshop just
last month (Sunday 19 October), titled
Post by Jerry Kohl
"Alchemists of Sound".
And we shouldn't forget Lester Paul. He did it with laquers instead of
tape...tons of generations worth!
Sorry, don't know the name. When would that have been? The early musique
concrète work in Paris (before about 1948) was done on lacquer (shellac)
discs, before tape-recording machines were finally made available there,
and similar work using re-recording of shellac discs was done in New York
at about the same time (by John Cage, amongst others).

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Mister Charlie
2003-11-22 21:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
It was clear. Very debatable, but clear. The number of young bands
influenced by The Beatles is much greater than the number
influenced by
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
Hendrix and the Beatles' influence goes beyond Rock into genres
unaffected
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
by Hendrix.
Absolutely. The Beatles popularized multitrack recording,
overdubbing, and the seemingly obvious idea of spending a lot of
time
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
and care on recording. Before Sgt. Pepper it was pretty much record
in one day, maybe two. NOBODY does it like that anymore.
Note I said popularized. Karlheinz Stockhausen actually
invented
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
it,
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
and Frank Zappa brought the idea to pop music.
I'm not sure that Stockhausen "invented" this technique
single-handed
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
(after all, multitrack recording was being
Post by Jerry Kohl
used in film soundtracks by the late 1930s, notably in Disney's
Fantasia, while Stockhausen learned overdubbing
Post by Jerry Kohl
while studying in Paris in 1952), but he certainly did a great deal to
develop these techniques in the earlier
Post by Jerry Kohl
stages of studio-produced tape music. (He certainly did invent the
feedback-recording technique of reversing the
Post by Jerry Kohl
normal positions of record and playback heads.)
However, jumping from Stockhausen to either Zappa or the Beatles
overlooks the very important influence of the
Post by Jerry Kohl
BBC Radiophonic Workshop, a team whose most prominent member was the
late Delia Derbyshire. The Workshop,
Post by Jerry Kohl
established in 1958, drew heavily on techniques that had been
established in Cologne at the WDR, where
Post by Jerry Kohl
Stockhausen worked. BBC4 showed a documentary about the Workshop just
last month (Sunday 19 October), titled
Post by Jerry Kohl
"Alchemists of Sound".
And we shouldn't forget Lester Paul. He did it with laquers instead of
tape...tons of generations worth!
Sorry, don't know the name. When would that have been? The early musique
concrète work in Paris (before about 1948) was done on lacquer (shellac)
discs, before tape-recording machines were finally made available there,
and similar work using re-recording of shellac discs was done in New York
at about the same time (by John Cage, amongst others).
I can't give an exact date but it was in the same time frame, late 40's
I believe. And I was being a bit obtuse...perhaps the name Les Paul
would ring a bell (his real last name was Pohl I think).
BlackMonk
2003-11-22 22:40:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlackMonk
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
It was clear. Very debatable, but clear. The number of young
bands
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
influenced by The Beatles is much greater than the number
influenced by
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
Hendrix and the Beatles' influence goes beyond Rock into
genres
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
unaffected
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
by Hendrix.
Absolutely. The Beatles popularized multitrack recording,
overdubbing, and the seemingly obvious idea of spending a lot of
time
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
and care on recording. Before Sgt. Pepper it was pretty much
record
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
in one day, maybe two. NOBODY does it like that anymore.
Note I said popularized. Karlheinz Stockhausen actually
invented
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
it,
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
and Frank Zappa brought the idea to pop music.
I'm not sure that Stockhausen "invented" this technique
single-handed
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
(after all, multitrack recording was being
Post by Jerry Kohl
used in film soundtracks by the late 1930s, notably in Disney's
Fantasia, while Stockhausen learned overdubbing
Post by Jerry Kohl
while studying in Paris in 1952), but he certainly did a great
deal to
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
develop these techniques in the earlier
Post by Jerry Kohl
stages of studio-produced tape music. (He certainly did invent the
feedback-recording technique of reversing the
Post by Jerry Kohl
normal positions of record and playback heads.)
However, jumping from Stockhausen to either Zappa or the Beatles
overlooks the very important influence of the
Post by Jerry Kohl
BBC Radiophonic Workshop, a team whose most prominent member was
the
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
late Delia Derbyshire. The Workshop,
Post by Jerry Kohl
established in 1958, drew heavily on techniques that had been
established in Cologne at the WDR, where
Post by Jerry Kohl
Stockhausen worked. BBC4 showed a documentary about the Workshop
just
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
last month (Sunday 19 October), titled
Post by Jerry Kohl
"Alchemists of Sound".
And we shouldn't forget Lester Paul. He did it with laquers instead
of
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
tape...tons of generations worth!
Sorry, don't know the name. When would that have been? The early
musique
Post by Jerry Kohl
concrète work in Paris (before about 1948) was done on lacquer
(shellac)
Post by Jerry Kohl
discs, before tape-recording machines were finally made available
there,
Post by Jerry Kohl
and similar work using re-recording of shellac discs was done in New
York
Post by Jerry Kohl
at about the same time (by John Cage, amongst others).
I can't give an exact date but it was in the same time frame, late 40's
I believe. And I was being a bit obtuse...perhaps the name Les Paul
would ring a bell (his real last name was Pohl I think).
Polfus, though I think I've seen different spellings. The book I just looked
him up in doesn't say when he started doing overdubs, but one single that
used multiple overdubs in 1948 was mentioned, "Lover/Brazil." He started
recording with Mary Ford in 1950. Those were pop vocal hits, meaning that
they made the technique widely known long before Zappa or The Beatles.

In rock and roll, for example, Eddie Cochran was making records using
several guitar overdubs long before either The Beatles or Zappa were
recording.
Jerry Kohl
2003-11-22 23:08:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by BlackMonk
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
It was clear. Very debatable, but clear. The number of young
bands
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
influenced by The Beatles is much greater than the number
influenced by
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
Hendrix and the Beatles' influence goes beyond Rock into
genres
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
unaffected
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
by Hendrix.
Absolutely. The Beatles popularized multitrack recording,
overdubbing, and the seemingly obvious idea of spending a lot of
time
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
and care on recording. Before Sgt. Pepper it was pretty much
record
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
in one day, maybe two. NOBODY does it like that anymore.
Note I said popularized. Karlheinz Stockhausen actually
invented
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
it,
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
and Frank Zappa brought the idea to pop music.
I'm not sure that Stockhausen "invented" this technique
single-handed
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
(after all, multitrack recording was being
Post by Jerry Kohl
used in film soundtracks by the late 1930s, notably in Disney's
Fantasia, while Stockhausen learned overdubbing
Post by Jerry Kohl
while studying in Paris in 1952), but he certainly did a great
deal to
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
develop these techniques in the earlier
Post by Jerry Kohl
stages of studio-produced tape music. (He certainly did invent the
feedback-recording technique of reversing the
Post by Jerry Kohl
normal positions of record and playback heads.)
However, jumping from Stockhausen to either Zappa or the Beatles
overlooks the very important influence of the
Post by Jerry Kohl
BBC Radiophonic Workshop, a team whose most prominent member was
the
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
late Delia Derbyshire. The Workshop,
Post by Jerry Kohl
established in 1958, drew heavily on techniques that had been
established in Cologne at the WDR, where
Post by Jerry Kohl
Stockhausen worked. BBC4 showed a documentary about the Workshop
just
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
last month (Sunday 19 October), titled
Post by Jerry Kohl
"Alchemists of Sound".
And we shouldn't forget Lester Paul. He did it with laquers instead
of
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by BlackMonk
tape...tons of generations worth!
Sorry, don't know the name. When would that have been? The early
musique
Post by Jerry Kohl
concrète work in Paris (before about 1948) was done on lacquer
(shellac)
Post by Jerry Kohl
discs, before tape-recording machines were finally made available
there,
Post by Jerry Kohl
and similar work using re-recording of shellac discs was done in New
York
Post by Jerry Kohl
at about the same time (by John Cage, amongst others).
I can't give an exact date but it was in the same time frame, late 40's
I believe. And I was being a bit obtuse...perhaps the name Les Paul
would ring a bell (his real last name was Pohl I think).
Ah! Lester Polfus! As in Les Paul and Mary Ford, gotcha. I didn't realise
je was an innovator in multitracking, but having the right name makes a
Google search possible. According to
<http://www.music.columbia.edu/cmc/courses/g6630/recordproduction1.html>
the overdubbing didn't happen until 1949 (and by then it was on tape), but
he was already multitracking in 1930 on shellac! This is useful for me to
know, since clearly Les Paul was in place long before Cage or the Parisians
started using these techniques. They had to have come from somewhere.
Thanks for the pointer.

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
BlackMonk
2003-11-22 22:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
It was clear. Very debatable, but clear. The number of young bands
influenced by The Beatles is much greater than the number influenced by
Hendrix and the Beatles' influence goes beyond Rock into genres unaffected
by Hendrix.
Absolutely. The Beatles popularized multitrack recording,
overdubbing, and the seemingly obvious idea of spending a lot of time
and care on recording. Before Sgt. Pepper it was pretty much record
in one day, maybe two. NOBODY does it like that anymore.
Note I said popularized. Karlheinz Stockhausen actually invented it,
and Frank Zappa brought the idea to pop music.
I'm not sure that Stockhausen "invented" this technique single-handed
(after all, multitrack recording was being
Post by Jerry Kohl
used in film soundtracks by the late 1930s, notably in Disney's Fantasia,
while Stockhausen learned overdubbing
Post by Jerry Kohl
while studying in Paris in 1952), but he certainly did a great deal to
develop these techniques in the earlier
Post by Jerry Kohl
stages of studio-produced tape music. (He certainly did invent the
feedback-recording technique of reversing the
Post by Jerry Kohl
normal positions of record and playback heads.)
However, jumping from Stockhausen to either Zappa or the Beatles overlooks
the very important influence of the
Post by Jerry Kohl
BBC Radiophonic Workshop, a team whose most prominent member was the late
Delia Derbyshire. The Workshop,
Post by Jerry Kohl
established in 1958, drew heavily on techniques that had been established
in Cologne at the WDR, where
Post by Jerry Kohl
Stockhausen worked. BBC4 showed a documentary about the Workshop just last
month (Sunday 19 October), titled
Post by Jerry Kohl
"Alchemists of Sound".
Shouldn't Les Paul be mentioned somewhere in there?
paramucho
2003-11-23 05:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Post by BlackMonk
It was clear. Very debatable, but clear. The number of young bands
influenced by The Beatles is much greater than the number influenced by
Hendrix and the Beatles' influence goes beyond Rock into genres unaffected
by Hendrix.
Absolutely. The Beatles popularized multitrack recording,
overdubbing, and the seemingly obvious idea of spending a lot of time
and care on recording. Before Sgt. Pepper it was pretty much record
in one day, maybe two. NOBODY does it like that anymore.
Note I said popularized. Karlheinz Stockhausen actually invented it,
and Frank Zappa brought the idea to pop music.
I'm not sure that Stockhausen "invented" this technique single-handed (after all, multitrack recording was being
used in film soundtracks by the late 1930s, notably in Disney's Fantasia, while Stockhausen learned overdubbing
while studying in Paris in 1952), but he certainly did a great deal to develop these techniques in the earlier
stages of studio-produced tape music. (He certainly did invent the feedback-recording technique of reversing the
normal positions of record and playback heads.)
I have a one hundred page listing of electronic etc music sources from
the mid-sixties. I remember hearing some of this sort of stuff at ISCM
performances at the time. It was all the rage.
Post by Jerry Kohl
However, jumping from Stockhausen to either Zappa or the Beatles overlooks the very important influence of the
BBC Radiophonic Workshop, a team whose most prominent member was the late Delia Derbyshire. The Workshop,
established in 1958, drew heavily on techniques that had been established in Cologne at the WDR, where
Stockhausen worked. BBC4 showed a documentary about the Workshop just last month (Sunday 19 October), titled
"Alchemists of Sound".
I would love to have seen that show. It might get out here to our ABC
sometime.

In the sixties Derbyshire was a big promoter of Stockhausen, and
others I guess. One of the problems with the "Hymnen"-influenced-
"Revolution 9" theory is that "Revolution 9" was produced in 1968
*after* Stockhausen's first performances but *before* it was released
as recording. I wrote to KHz about this and was told that the piece
was in private distribution. I have the feeling that Derbyshire could
well have been the link, even if indirectly via the general London art
scene.

George Martin likes to relate that he made a sort of avant garde pop
single under the pseudonym Ray Cathode before he got the Beatles
("Time Beat" or something like that). It turns out that all the spacey
stuff on that track came from the Radiophonic Workshop with Martin
being responsible for the overdubbed cheesy psuedo-Greek dance stuff.

The workshop was famously responsible for the Dr Who theme.
Jerry Kohl
2003-11-23 07:23:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by paramucho
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Note I said popularized. Karlheinz Stockhausen actually invented it,
and Frank Zappa brought the idea to pop music.
I'm not sure that Stockhausen "invented" this technique single-handed (after all, multitrack recording was being
used in film soundtracks by the late 1930s, notably in Disney's Fantasia, while Stockhausen learned overdubbing
while studying in Paris in 1952), but he certainly did a great deal to develop these techniques in the earlier
stages of studio-produced tape music. (He certainly did invent the feedback-recording technique of reversing the
normal positions of record and playback heads.)
I have a one hundred page listing of electronic etc music sources from
the mid-sixties. I remember hearing some of this sort of stuff at ISCM
performances at the time. It was all the rage.
"This sort of stuff" being ... ? (By the mid-sixties there was an awful lot of "electronic music" about. I'm most
familiar with Stockhausen's work, of course, but Schaeffer, Henry, Berio, Bayle, Krenek, Varèse, Raaijmakers,
Ferrari, von Biel, Maderna, Eimert, Nono, Kagel, Ligeti, Penderecki, Pousseur, Koenig, Fritsch, Hambreus and others
on the Continent, Babbitt, Martirano, Hiller, Subotnik, Brün, Powell, Lansky, Cage, Ussachevsky, Arel, Davidovsky
etc. in the US, Myron Schaeffer in Canada, Moroi, Ichiyanagi, Miyoshi, Mayazumi, Matsudaira, Yuasa and Takahashi in
Japan, were all well-established names. And this is entirely apart from predominantly film-music and sound-effects
work.)
Post by paramucho
Post by Jerry Kohl
However, jumping from Stockhausen to either Zappa or the Beatles overlooks the very important influence of the
BBC Radiophonic Workshop, a team whose most prominent member was the late Delia Derbyshire. The Workshop,
established in 1958, drew heavily on techniques that had been established in Cologne at the WDR, where
Stockhausen worked. BBC4 showed a documentary about the Workshop just last month (Sunday 19 October), titled
"Alchemists of Sound".
I would love to have seen that show. It might get out here to our ABC
sometime.
In the sixties Derbyshire was a big promoter of Stockhausen, and
others I guess. One of the problems with the "Hymnen"-influenced-
"Revolution 9" theory is that "Revolution 9" was produced in 1968
*after* Stockhausen's first performances but *before* it was released
as recording. I wrote to KHz about this and was told that the piece
was in private distribution. I have the feeling that Derbyshire could
well have been the link, even if indirectly via the general London art
scene.
I don't see that the commercial recording was necessary to transmission of the essence of the composition, and the
techniques of production remain largely unpublished to this day. In fact, the piece as released on record was a bit
of a misrepresentation at the time, as the many public performances were *always* with "live" performers, in what
was later termed the "version with soloists", whereas the "tape only" version wasn't actually "performed publically"
until the 1980s. I have no doubt that "the piece was in private distribution" long before DG released the record,
and it seems impossible that a professional enthusiast like Derbyshire could have been unaware of Hymnen, right from
the moment of its first performance.
Post by paramucho
George Martin likes to relate that he made a sort of avant garde pop
single under the pseudonym Ray Cathode before he got the Beatles
("Time Beat" or something like that). It turns out that all the spacey
stuff on that track came from the Radiophonic Workshop with Martin
being responsible for the overdubbed cheesy psuedo-Greek dance stuff.
The workshop was famously responsible for the Dr Who theme.
Yes, well, except for the actual composition, which was done by an Australian composer named Ron Grainer. However,
anyone who has heard Grainer's own arrangements of that theme will appreciate the importance of the contribution to
it made by the Radiophonic Workshop.

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
paramucho
2003-11-23 12:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by paramucho
Post by Jerry Kohl
Post by Patrick Powers
Note I said popularized. Karlheinz Stockhausen actually invented it,
and Frank Zappa brought the idea to pop music.
I'm not sure that Stockhausen "invented" this technique single-handed (after all, multitrack recording was being
used in film soundtracks by the late 1930s, notably in Disney's Fantasia, while Stockhausen learned overdubbing
while studying in Paris in 1952), but he certainly did a great deal to develop these techniques in the earlier
stages of studio-produced tape music. (He certainly did invent the feedback-recording technique of reversing the
normal positions of record and playback heads.)
I have a one hundred page listing of electronic etc music sources from
the mid-sixties. I remember hearing some of this sort of stuff at ISCM
performances at the time. It was all the rage.
"This sort of stuff" being ... ?
My brain doesn't go back that far anymore -- in fact I may be merging
memories. Pretty tedious stuff, but it was better than the tepid
psuedo-Indonesian marimba-like things and all the rest. I do recall
some of the concerts being held in the Percy Grainger museum across
the road from where I lived.
Post by Jerry Kohl
(By the mid-sixties there was an awful lot of "electronic music" about. I'm most
familiar with Stockhausen's work, of course, but Schaeffer, Henry, Berio, Bayle, Krenek, Varèse, Raaijmakers,
Ferrari, von Biel, Maderna, Eimert, Nono, Kagel, Ligeti, Penderecki, Pousseur, Koenig, Fritsch, Hambreus and others
on the Continent, Babbitt, Martirano, Hiller, Subotnik, Brün, Powell, Lansky, Cage, Ussachevsky, Arel, Davidovsky
etc. in the US, Myron Schaeffer in Canada, Moroi, Ichiyanagi, Miyoshi, Mayazumi, Matsudaira, Yuasa and Takahashi in
Japan, were all well-established names. And this is entirely apart from predominantly film-music and sound-effects
work.)
Post by paramucho
Post by Jerry Kohl
However, jumping from Stockhausen to either Zappa or the Beatles overlooks the very important influence of the
BBC Radiophonic Workshop, a team whose most prominent member was the late Delia Derbyshire. The Workshop,
established in 1958, drew heavily on techniques that had been established in Cologne at the WDR, where
Stockhausen worked. BBC4 showed a documentary about the Workshop just last month (Sunday 19 October), titled
"Alchemists of Sound".
I would love to have seen that show. It might get out here to our ABC
sometime.
In the sixties Derbyshire was a big promoter of Stockhausen, and
others I guess. One of the problems with the "Hymnen"-influenced-
"Revolution 9" theory is that "Revolution 9" was produced in 1968
*after* Stockhausen's first performances but *before* it was released
as recording. I wrote to KHz about this and was told that the piece
was in private distribution. I have the feeling that Derbyshire could
well have been the link, even if indirectly via the general London art
scene.
I don't see that the commercial recording was necessary to transmission of the essence of the composition, and the
techniques of production remain largely unpublished to this day. In fact, the piece as released on record was a bit
of a misrepresentation at the time, as the many public performances were *always* with "live" performers, in what
was later termed the "version with soloists", whereas the "tape only" version wasn't actually "performed publically"
until the 1980s. I have no doubt that "the piece was in private distribution" long before DG released the record,
and it seems impossible that a professional enthusiast like Derbyshire could have been unaware of Hymnen, right from
the moment of its first performance.
Probably before.
Jerry Kohl
2003-11-23 19:39:34 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by paramucho
Post by Jerry Kohl
I don't see that the commercial recording was necessary to transmission of the essence of the composition, and the
techniques of production remain largely unpublished to this day. In fact, the piece as released on record was a bit
of a misrepresentation at the time, as the many public performances were *always* with "live" performers, in what
was later termed the "version with soloists", whereas the "tape only" version wasn't actually "performed publically"
until the 1980s. I have no doubt that "the piece was in private distribution" long before DG released the record,
and it seems impossible that a professional enthusiast like Derbyshire could have been unaware of Hymnen, right from
the moment of its first performance.
Probably before.
I hadn't thought of that but, especially in the case of an electronic work realised on tape, this wouldn't have been at
all difficult to arrange.

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Eramon1
2003-11-10 02:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Mack
Certainly I wouldn't
question that the Beatles' influence was bigger than Hendrix's in their
own time, but I would still contend that Hendrix has been more
influential to the generations that have followed.
But is the Beatle's influence on current bands greater than Bach's or
Beethoven's? I'd say so. And where does that put either of those two? Behind
Hendrix? That would be an odd bit of reasoning.

We can only guess what future generations will think. Maybe they'll be cuckoo
for the Monkees.

Your comparison of the Beatles and Percy Faith is silly. At worst the
comparisons will be to Cole Porter et al.

-Eric
Steve Carras
2003-11-09 05:33:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Mack
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
Forget Bach and Beethoven. I wouldn't even give the Beatles the title
of greatest pop/rock band of their generation. IMO, Hendrix deserves
that title. Already, Hendrix has had a more significant influence on
the generations that have followed. And, while I wouldn't put him up
there with Bach and Beethoven, I think a comparison to Liszt is
arguable.
As the boomer generation dies off, my guess is that the obsessively
high esteem for the Beatles will die off as well. They'll be
remembered like, say, Percy Faith or Bing Crosby. Quite pleasant to
listen to, but dated and not particularly deep.
I can just imagine a music history class 100 years from now comparing
Beethoven's first two symphonies with "I Want To Hold Your Hand." LOL!
Okay, all you boomers: bring it on! ;)
Okay, Mr.MACK!! At least Bing, Percy, and the Beatles had something
NCIE to say unlike to RAP that YOU listen to. Eminem (and even some of
the 40s-60s "macho man" singers like Sinatra or drummer Buddy Rich,
just to be fair) sound MUCH more Neantherthal with their sexism vis a
vis the warm of George, Paul, Ringo, John, and the others mentions.
Stephen Mack
2003-11-09 11:19:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Carras
Post by Stephen Mack
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
Forget Bach and Beethoven. I wouldn't even give the Beatles the title
of greatest pop/rock band of their generation. IMO, Hendrix deserves
that title. Already, Hendrix has had a more significant influence on
the generations that have followed. And, while I wouldn't put him up
there with Bach and Beethoven, I think a comparison to Liszt is
arguable.
As the boomer generation dies off, my guess is that the obsessively
high esteem for the Beatles will die off as well. They'll be
remembered like, say, Percy Faith or Bing Crosby. Quite pleasant to
listen to, but dated and not particularly deep.
I can just imagine a music history class 100 years from now comparing
Beethoven's first two symphonies with "I Want To Hold Your Hand." LOL!
Okay, all you boomers: bring it on! ;)
Okay, Mr.MACK!! At least Bing, Percy, and the Beatles had something
NCIE to say unlike to RAP that YOU listen to. Eminem (and even some of
the 40s-60s "macho man" singers like Sinatra or drummer Buddy Rich,
just to be fair) sound MUCH more Neantherthal with their sexism vis a
vis the warm of George, Paul, Ringo, John, and the others mentions.
Ehhh. . . I'm not really sure where to begin with this.

First of all, I don't know how you got the impression that I listen to
rap. More importantly, even if I did, I'm not sure how it's relevant
to the topic at hand. I thought we were discussing whether the Beatles
measure up against Bach and Beethoven. It's my opinion that they don't
quite measure up to Hendrix of their own generation, let alone the
greats Bach and Beethoven. I don't see where your references to
Eminem, Sinatra, and Buddy Rich come from.

Next, I really don't understand what having nice things to say has to
do with the greatness of an artist's musical output. Certainly
Beethoven wrote much music that wasn't very "nice," yet most would
agree his musical output is surpassed by extremely few (and, in my
opinion, none at all). And, at any rate, you seem to be referring to
the artists' lyrics when you say they had something nice to say, and I
think lyrical content and musical content are different things (and,
indeed, I was under the impression that it was the musical output of
these artists that was in question).

I did say - and very sincerely mean - that the music of the Beatles,
Percy Faith, and Bing Crosby are "quite pleasant to listen to," (see
above) and that certainly counts for something. It doesn't put any of
them, however, on the level of Beethoven or Bach.

And as for Neanderthals and sexism, I think - once again - that's a
completely different can of worms.

So, I may be missing something, but I really don't understand the point
of your post. Perhaps you or someone else here could enlighten me. I
hope you didn't take my little "bring it on" joke too seriously.

I also must apologize, as I didn't bother to realize that this thread
is crossposted. I'm reading this from rec.music.classical, and I guess
you must be reading from rec.music.beatles. Had I bothered to notice
that my post was going to other newsgroups, I might have worded my post
more. . . <ahem> gently.
--
Smack

"Nobody's smart enough to be wrong all the time." -Ken Wilber
Bill Johnston
2003-11-09 06:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Mack
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
Forget Bach and Beethoven. I wouldn't even give the Beatles the title
of greatest pop/rock band of their generation. IMO, Hendrix deserves
that title. Already, Hendrix has had a more significant influence on
the generations that have followed. And, while I wouldn't put him up
there with Bach and Beethoven, I think a comparison to Liszt is
arguable.
I think comparing the Beatles and Bach is comparing apples and
oranges...one's popular music, the other is classical, and their
relative virtues are not comparable. The Beatles would be pretty
simplistic, repetitive classical, and Bach wouldnt be very good rock-
very abstract, no lyrics, no groove.
Post by Stephen Mack
As the boomer generation dies off, my guess is that the obsessively
high esteem for the Beatles will die off as well. They'll be
remembered like, say, Percy Faith or Bing Crosby. Quite pleasant to
listen to, but dated and not particularly deep.
I don't think you're correct on that. I'm 25 and I enjoy the Beatles,
and I'm not alone, in fact I read that 35% of high schoolers listen to
them. It's not nostalgia- they really were quite creative and
talented.
Post by Stephen Mack
I can just imagine a music history class 100 years from now comparing
Beethoven's first two symphonies with "I Want To Hold Your Hand." LOL!
Well, they probably won't compare them...probably they'll be in
different classes...it would be like comparing Beethoven's 2nd with
"Oh Susanna".
Post by Stephen Mack
Okay, all you boomers: bring it on! ;)
Frisbie Einstein
2003-11-11 12:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Mack
As the boomer generation dies off, my guess is that the obsessively
high esteem for the Beatles will die off as well. They'll be
remembered like, say, Percy Faith or Bing Crosby. Quite pleasant to
listen to, but dated and not particularly deep.
Once my two nieces hit puberty they contracted Beatlemania.
Beatles Forever
2003-11-09 01:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Townsend can conduct, using his windmill arm gestures<<
This is the best I've read here in years. Kind of surprized no one else
ever put it like that.
Thanks for the humor.
--
MISSING CHILD -Alexandria Cyprian
http://www.childsearch.org/alexandria_cyprian.html

GOMCS MISSING:Amato, Andrew
http://www.gomcs.org/usa/0211-usa.htm
paramucho
2003-11-09 13:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
You agree? I don't, but what if we were to turn rock albums into
symphonic pieces?
Never mind just the Beatles. Imagine the Who's My Generation and
Stone's Satisfaction performed by a large orchestra. In the case of
the former, we may even let the drummer destroy his equipment.
Townsend can conduct, using his windmill arm gestures.
Rescoring a rock band work for full orchestra doesn't make the music
"symphonic". It just makes it a transcription. And it alters nothing
regarding their relative chances at eternity vis a vis Bach and
Beethoven.
mcnewsxp
2003-11-09 15:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
eternaly up there where - rolling stone top 100? billboard?
the minds and hearts of serious music lovers? collectors? critics?
music history class? books?
Post by Elena Nakashima
You agree? I don't, but what if we were to turn rock albums into
symphonic pieces?
lots of beatles tunes have been orchestrated.
from small ensembles to symphony.
Post by Elena Nakashima
Never mind just the Beatles. Imagine the Who's My Generation and
Stone's Satisfaction performed by a large orchestra.
probably'll get done.
hope i miss it.
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the case of
the former, we may even let the drummer destroy his equipment.
Townsend can conduct, using his windmill arm gestures.
funny.
i can picture bugs bunny doing pete doing zubin.
Joe Giorgianni
2003-11-10 15:06:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by mcnewsxp
lots of beatles tunes have been orchestrated.
from small ensembles to symphony.
Several years ago when I saw Henry Mancini with the Philadelphia Orchestra
at the Saratoga Performing Arts Center, they did "Overture" from Tommy.

I'd love to see an orchestra do "A Quick One While He's Away."
--
Joe Giorgianni
TheWho.org
"This guitar has seconds to live" Posters
richmach
2003-11-09 19:28:00 UTC
Permalink
For as long as there is music, The Beatles will be remembered and revered IMO.
Shorty Blackwell
2003-11-10 01:30:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elena Nakashima
In the late 60s, especially after Beatles bridged pop and art with
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, London Times declared that
Beatles were as important and destined for eternity as Bach and
Beethoven.
You agree?
Yeah. They mean as much to me personally.
Post by Elena Nakashima
Never mind just the Beatles. Imagine the Who's My Generation and
Stone's Satisfaction performed by a large orchestra.
I'd love it. ...Well, the former more than the latter because I think
it lends itself to that more.
Alan Watkins
2003-11-24 00:20:42 UTC
Permalink
Not qualified to comment on whether the Beatles can be compared with
Bach or Beethoven but feel qualified to say that Keith Moon "changed"
rock drumming, as did Ginger Baker for Cream and, that at his best, Mr
Watts lays down what we in this humble trade call a "tighter" beat
than Ringo did and continues to do so.

It's a great art form. Listen to the drummer in the Nits (Rob Kloet)
even if you do not like the medium. Great artistry to this old chap.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
HuntMan
2003-11-24 01:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Watkins
at his best, Mr
Watts lays down what we in this humble trade call a "tighter" beat
than Ringo did and continues to do so.
No offense, but I don't happen to agree that Charlie's "tighter" than
Ringo; have a listen to 'The Beatles - Live at the BBC' (assorted early 60s
live tracks) & you'll hear a very tight & creative Ringo. Charlie did hit
his stride around 'Beggar's Banquet' & he really did swing solidly
throughout the late 60s/early 70s (especially on 'Bleed' & 'Exile'), but
ever since touring with Ollie Brown (75-76), I've been astonished at his
sloppiness. His rolls are now SO amateurish, & his (formally) rock-solid,
swinging back-beat has been replaced by a very stiff, staccato 4/4. Have a
fresh listen to anything from 'Some Girls' on, & see if you don't agree.

Just my worthless opinion...
--
HuntMan
Alan Watkins
2003-11-24 00:38:29 UTC
Permalink
PS: Not to mention Carlton Barrett, Bob Marley's drummer. Not Bach or
Beethoven, of course, but bloody hard stuff to play as well as he did.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
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